By Vimal Krishnan Pillai, MD, FACEE Principal Secretary, The Emergency Medicine Association
India is at Cross roads of conflict when it comes to Emergency HealthCare.
The Health Care Industry in India is booming with Corporate for Profit hospitals mushrooming across India …thanks to Investments in India’s HealthCare.
The
culture in India is that every MBBS Physician in India aspires to be a
specialist. There are around 65,000 MBBS seats in India and only around 20,000
PG seats
Due to the staggering difference was a constant struggle to achieve some sort of an accredited qualification after MBBS.
Due to the staggering difference was a constant struggle to achieve some sort of an accredited qualification after MBBS.
This
also gave birth to a corrupt pathway where non-accredited courses were designed
and marketed for monetary gains. These could be anything from paid Fellowships
to any type of non-accredited courses.
Even though there are clear guidelines on what should be quoted as a qualification, there are numerous non- accredited courses thriving here due to regional heterogeneity in medical education and the challenge to govern, regulate and track healthcare providers enforcing the rule was tough.
With the rise of International Investments in HealthCare, like the west the expectations from these investment driven hospitals to prove Quality Emergency Care 24/7 grew.
Even though there are clear guidelines on what should be quoted as a qualification, there are numerous non- accredited courses thriving here due to regional heterogeneity in medical education and the challenge to govern, regulate and track healthcare providers enforcing the rule was tough.
With the rise of International Investments in HealthCare, like the west the expectations from these investment driven hospitals to prove Quality Emergency Care 24/7 grew.
The campaign to get EM Recognized by the regulatory bodies like Medical Council of India (MCI) and the National Board of Examinations (NBE) as a specialty was only was realized after 2009.
Running a Competent for profit Emergency Department needed committed and qualified Emergency Physicians.
That was the elbow gap when vested forces started manufacturing non-accredited Training Courses which are illegal in India.
If unconfirmed estimates have to be believed there are over 1000+ Medical students who have been lured into such courses.
The unregulated manner in which these malignant and corrupt courses have mushroomed has left the academic community in India stunned.
There has been massive anxiety as regards the factors under which such Unrecognized Training Programs are conducted at hospitals without permissions.
Physicians not recognized or qualified to be Teachers are impersonating the role of being trainers and are conducting training programs using the most vulnerable patients presenting to the Emergency Departments as training subjects without governmental permissions.
Physicians/ Institutions/ Associations not permitted to train are handing out qualifications.
These factors raise a lot of ethical and patient safety concerns.
There are all sorts of Certifications in India without prior permission of the Government of India. These Certifications are also causing a lot of confusion and disharmony for the regulatory agencies.
In this era where Government is moving towards One Nation-One Admission-Uniform Training- One Examination- Standardized Model there will be a dire need to immediately regulate and discipline these irregularities.
It is sad that Emergency Medicine has emerged as a front runner in this misconduct as this is a new specialty and the violators are misusing the brand value of Emergency Medicine to fulfill their selfish motives.
The violators try to justify their actions saying that they are doing “Capacity Building”. They forget that when it comes to be being certified as a SPECIALIST …there has been a system in place for India since independence. The Medical Council of India and The National Board of Examinations have that role well mandated.
CAPACITY BUILDING to improve Emergency Care by training physicians to better care is one thing but to assume and impersonate training programs and award non- accredited masters or degree is grossly illegal.
It is a known fact that India needs Specialist not only in EM but in every field. The worst fear is that If EM Violators continue to foster then other specialties will try to do the same and India will be flooded with Surgeons, Physicians, Pulmonologists, and Intensivists with all sorts of certificates.
It’s a Pandora’s Box which will spring open if this misconduct is not stopped.
At One hand Indian Hospitals are boasting of being a Medical Tourism Destination and one the other hand they are involved in irregularities.
I am a firm supporter of Governmental control of HealthCare and Medical Education.
Violations like these grossly undermine the authority of the Medical Council of India and the National Board of Examinations.
The
Government is working hard to improve HealthCare at large and standardize the
Medical Education system…..
The Emergency Medicine Irregularities have emerged to be its biggest hurdle.
Violators are fooling the medical fraternity and community while the government accredited degree holders MD/DNB face the uncertainty of being in a job market where non-accredited training and certifications are being doctored as the standards for qualification and quality care.
The future of hardworking post graduate qualified MD/DNB Emergency Physicians are in danger if steps are not taken to one and for all discipline the violators.
No Country would allow this indiscipline or forgive the violators. India is no different!
The Emergency Medicine Irregularities have emerged to be its biggest hurdle.
Violators are fooling the medical fraternity and community while the government accredited degree holders MD/DNB face the uncertainty of being in a job market where non-accredited training and certifications are being doctored as the standards for qualification and quality care.
The future of hardworking post graduate qualified MD/DNB Emergency Physicians are in danger if steps are not taken to one and for all discipline the violators.
No Country would allow this indiscipline or forgive the violators. India is no different!
I
call upon my Fellow MD/NBE PG Students and Qualified Emergency Physicians to
unite in this struggle against this fraud where the Authority of our
Accreditors (MCI/NBE) is undermined and a mockery of Academic Emergency
Medicine is being made.
The
Time is now before it’s too late !
Well said. True.
ReplyDeleteAn emergency doctor from a "MCI recognized" program may not always be knowledgeable and qualified to work as an EM physician when compared to "MCI non-recognized program" and vice versa. If we really need to bring about a change, there needs to be a common certification exam for this specialty (both practical and theory- conducted by "actual" emergency physicians and accredited by a central Emergency Board. Creating rift between fellow MBBS doctors is detrimental to emergency medicine. Students from all training programs should be eligible for this board certification exam after 3 years of their training in an emergency department. This will also motivate EM physicians to stay back in India, instead of pursuing MCEM (in the name of recognition). This is nothing but petty politics out of education.
ReplyDeleteFugitive currency not accepted.
DeleteFugitive courses not acceptable.
The inevitable change is in air
Don't waste time. Procure a legitimate degree
There a lot of MBBS doctor who do excellent work.we cannot say only a specialist is good.when u call u r self a specialist u should be trained in a way which has been prescribed by the policy makers. U can not claim u are good non mci accredited emergency physician so u need recognised.u should be trained in a accredited program then only u have a value.notes only printed by RBI is considered to have value.if u make even a better one,u can also claim it from abroad it doesn't have any value.
DeleteWe are fighting as whole against back money let's also Unite room fight against this fake courses
Sir I don't think there's need for a separate central board for emergency medicine as we already have two boards ie Medical council of India and National board of examinations. PG courses in all subjects come under these.These courses already have a certification exam ie the MD exam conducted by reputed universities under the regulations of MCI which is applicable to emergency medicine also.
Delete"What do you mean by exam conducted by actual emergency physicians?".We all had our MD exams conducted by Emergency physicians who holds a MCI RECOGNIZED degree and also having 20-25 years experience in Emergency medicine.. So currently there is no need for another common board certification exam to certify recognized and non-recognized candidates.
And we all stay back in India because we hold a recognized degree and no one is going to question us in future..thank you...
Could you also comment on as to what value does the FACEE in your credentials hold and what recognised right do you hold that enables you to put it across your name?
ReplyDeleteA degree with F doesn't mean anything. Dr. pillai. Come and see the hard work what your fellow countrymen have put through for the development of the field. By the way what's your MD General medicine. I appreciate your comment for I fell we have scratched your ass.
ReplyDeleteI meant we are Made in India
ReplyDeleteOne of the corrupt association in India MCI,I think retard authore is agent for emergency medicine course and he thinks if many emergency physician from non mci recorganised degree doing their job well he thinks his business will get affected so he is stirring up new controversy.
ReplyDeleteGood luck vimal krishnan pillai
U r talking about corrupted MCI. U r a medical practitioner u would having u r basic degree from MCI author of this article has shown the facts in most apt way possible I need to congratulat him for this
DeleteVimal krishnan pillai FACEE his mci degree
ReplyDelete"I call upon my Fellow MD/NBE PG Students and Qualified Emergency Physicians to unite in this struggle against this fraud where the Authority of our Accreditors (MCI/NBE) is undermined and a mockery of Academic Emergency Medicine is being made."
I think it has hurt many Violaters of Law and doing wrong does not make something right and covering wrong to make it right is still wrong.
DeleteThere are only two Institutions MCI/NBE and everything else is Fraud - it is like saying One could not do MBBS so did Something else but just because they are Non allopathic doctors they should be given voluntary MBBS - MD/NBE has a value , a framework. I understand Many students have been misled and fooled and now the violators are not in a position to answer the promises they gave these poor students.
Intent without Content is no value regardless.
MD and DNB will always be MD / DNB and no one can undermine the superiority or the importance of these young graduates and qualified leaders.
Dear vimal Krishna pillai
DeleteGreetings. All the emergency physicians trained in India are accepted in middle East, UK and many international countries. All of them worked hard for more than 12 hours a day for 3 years and got their degree. After passing they are working more than 12 to 18 hours in towns and villages to save lives. It is not that they are not qualified. UGC or college of Emergency medicine UK has accredited their degree. NBE accepting them as faculty.
If you are believing the quality of MCI is the best, it is not only me the entire world knows about the quality of MCI. That's why Our PM Narendra modi wants to bring NMC. For 30 bed(more than 150 patients per day) ER, the MCI is giving 2PGs per year. If they knew the concept of EM and team work or if they knew the value of life they wouldn't have taken this decision. For 120 crore population just 50 per year is not enough. By having pessimistic approach we are losing our hard earned EPs to other countries. Hope you will take back your bad commands.
We are all Emergency physicians. Let us not fight with each other. Let us not entertain other specialty to separate and ruin us. Expecting a positive response from you
Dr. V. P. Chandrasekaan
Dear vimal Krishna pillai
DeleteGreetings. All the emergency physicians trained in India are accepted in middle East, UK and many international countries. All of them worked hard for more than 12 hours a day for 3 years and got their degree. After passing they are working more than 12 to 18 hours in towns and villages to save lives. It is not that they are not qualified. UGC or college of Emergency medicine UK has accredited their degree. NBE accepting them as faculty.
If you are believing the quality of MCI is the best, it is not only me the entire world knows about the quality of MCI. That's why Our PM Narendra modi wants to bring NMC. For 30 bed(more than 150 patients per day) ER, the MCI is giving 2PGs per year. If they knew the concept of EM and team work or if they knew the value of life they wouldn't have taken this decision. For 120 crore population just 50 per year is not enough. By having pessimistic approach we are losing our hard earned EPs to other countries. Hope you will take back your bad commands.
We are all Emergency physicians. Let us not fight with each other. Let us not entertain other specialty to separate and ruin us. Expecting a positive response from you
Dr. V. P. Chandrasekaan
Sir how could the National board of Examinations accept them as faculty.
DeleteAN UNAUTHORIZED DEGREE HOLDER CAN BECOME THE FACULTY OF THAT UNAUTHORIZED DEGREE ONLY!!!
DEAR DR VPC
DeleteSir i agree with your valid point stating that emergency physician trained in India are well accepted abroad.many of them are very successful in India also.these doctors were trained in few well reputed medical colleges when MCI has not even recognized the specialty.
now time have changed specialty has been recognized by MCI AND NBE.both these accredited bodies are conducting courses.
yes as u stated for 120 core population this much number of seats are not adequate,so the right way is to make the policy maker aware of this crisis and increase the number of accredited courses.sir have you ever made such an effort to fight for more accredited courses,you r part of an society which has many eminent people .it is very disappointing to see that some non accredited course as an alternative.
sir for your knowledge MCI gives only two seats because for each PG seat the department should have adequate number of professor,asso professror,asst professor.they cannot just give any number of seats as these non accredited courses do.
To retain our future emergency physician in India we need only accredited degree holder so they don't have the insecurity and go abroad.
sir we are all emergency physicians let unite and eradicate these unaccredited courses
LETS WORK FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE COUNTRY
JAI HIND
Dr Anonymous repliers, it leaves me surprised that an honest blog could bring out such stinging comments from all those who do not believe in the authenticity of our own MD / NBE. I appreciate and fully support Dr Vimal for outrightly supporting the importance of Proper and authentic and appropriate training in EM rather than the so called easier routes to be called EM physician .
ReplyDeleteFor the kind information of all you terribly misinformed souls out there... These so called MCI recognised EM degrees that you have mentioned are all MCI PERMITTED and NOT MCI recognised. Please refer MCI website. Your so called precious Jubilee mission course is also only Permitted and not recognised which makes you all MD EM people equally UNQUALIFIED to practice EM in India as any of the other so mentioned unrecognised courses. So please, understand your own worth before you question and judge others.
DeleteAtleast its MCI permitted and unlike many courses not even permitted by the MCI
DeleteDr Anonymous repliers, it leaves me surprised that an honest blog could bring out such stinging comments from all those who do not believe in the authenticity of our own MD / NBE. I appreciate and fully support Dr Vimal for outrightly supporting the importance of Proper and authentic and appropriate training in EM rather than the so called easier routes to be called EM physician .
ReplyDeleteUnknown or ashima which is the one commenting on anonymous��
DeleteSo called MCI is in ventillator support soon r later it will be replaced
ReplyDeleteDr Vimal Krishnan hold MCI approved MD in EM and he did it from Jubilee Mission Med College,Kerala.That itself proved his autheticity.FACEE is only an added fellowship.Even without FACEE,he is legitimate EM physician coz he holds a MCI approved MD Degree in EM.
ReplyDeleteMd is legitimate Then why did he mentioned FACEE after his name
DeleteDr......MBBS, MD (Accident and Emergency),MEM (semi).
DeleteMBBS is legitimate...why all others
For the kind information of all you terribly misinformed souls out there... These so called MCI recognised EM degrees that you have mentioned are all MCI PERMITTED and NOT MCI recognised. Please refer MCI website. Your so called precious Jubilee mission course is also only Permitted and not recognised which makes you all MD EM people equally UNQUALIFIED to practice EM in India as any of the other so mentioned unrecognised courses. So please, understand your own worth before you question and judge others.
DeleteSeriously anonymous I read it twice what u wrote above ..... funny being from a govt medical college I know what permitted means , it means u haven't paid MCI enough or u dint match their tariff card or simply underpaid degree and u can only practise in the state u studied that degree not validate in all India so get ur stats clear and don't tell us what is legitimate and what is not!!
DeleteDude...ur source seems to be outdated. That was the earlier statement. MCI had made it clear in a reply to an RTI filed against it that Permitted means you can neither work for that qualification in the state you studied nor anywhere in the country. So yes, I will tell you what is legitimate and what is not !!!
DeleteFollowing are the medical colleges in India having MCI approved MD in Emergency Medicine.
ReplyDeleteCentral Institutes
1)AIIMS
2)JIPMER
Andhra Pradesh
2011 - 02 seats - Narayana Medical College, Nellore
2012 - 02 seats - Kamineni Institute of Medical Sciences, Narketpally
2012 - 02 seats - P E S Institute Of Medical Sciences and Research, Kuppam
2014 - 02 seats - Sri Venkateshwara Institute of Medical Sciences, Tirupati
Assam
2013 - 02 seats - Guwahati Medical College, Guwahati
Gujarat
2010 - 02 seats - B J Medical College, Ahmedabad
2010 - 02 seats - Smt. N.H.L.Municipal Medical College, Ahmedabad
2011 - 01 seats - Medical College, Baroda
2014 - 02 seats - Government Medical College, Surat
Karnataka
2011 - 01 seats - St. Johns Medical College, Bangalore
2011 - 02 seats - Vydehi Institute Of Medical Sciences & Research Centre, Bangalore
2012 - 03 seats - S S Institute of Medical Sciences & Research Centre, Davangere
2013 - 02 seats - Kempegowda Institute of Medical Sciences, Bangalore
2014 - 02 seats - JSS Medical College, Mysore
2014 - 02 seats - MS Ramaiah Medical College, Bangalore
2014 - 03 seats - JJM Medical College, Davanagere
Kerala
2012 - 02 seats - Academy of Medical Sciences, Pariyaram, Kannur
2012 - 02 seats - Amrita School of Medicine, Elamkara, Kochi
2012 - 02 seats - Govt. Medical College, Kozhikode, Calicut
2012 - 02 seats - Jubilee Mission Medical College & Research Institute, Thrissur
Maharashtra
2012 - 02 seats - Padmashree Dr. D.Y.Patil Medical College, Navi Mumbai
2013 - 02 seats - Mahatma Gandhi Missions Medical College, Navi Mumbai
2014 - 02 seats - DY Patil Medical College Hospital & Research Centre, Pimpri, Pune
Tamil Nadu
2012 - 02 seats - Vinayaka Missions Kirupananda Variyar Medical College, Salem
2013 - 02 seats - Sri Ramachandra Medical College & Research Institute, Chennai
For the kind information of all you terribly misinformed souls out there... These so called MCI recognised EM degrees that you have mentioned are all MCI PERMITTED and NOT MCI recognised. Please refer MCI website. Your so called precious Jubilee mission course is also only Permitted and not recognised which makes you all MD EM people equally UNQUALIFIED to practice EM in India as any of the other so mentioned unrecognised courses. So please, understand your own worth before you question and judge others.
DeleteTHERE ARE ONLY A HANDFUL OF INSTITUTES THAT RUN MCI RECOGNISED MD EM IN INDIA.
@dr.vimal krishna pillai...sir I am one unreal or ghost emergency physician as you said....but answer me this one question...when I completed my UG in 2010 I had a great passion to become a specialist in EM...at that time there were only 2 MCI reg MD seats all over india and none in my home state...so what do you expect me to do...wait till MCI reg seats come to my state and join tat...or to write entrance and join what ever course I get (no matter I like it or not) or to join the so called Ghost unreal EM training programme and pursue my career as EP towards which I have my passion..for obvious reasons I thought 3rd option was best...
ReplyDeleteTill now there are no MCI recognised MD EM seats in any of govt medical colleges in tamilnadu...So if I would have chosen to wait I would not have got a govt MD em seat till now after 6 years....
Delete@dr.vimal krishna pillai....do you even have a slightest idea how many precious lives would have been lost due to the lack of a EP in semi urban and urban areas like us if the so called unreal emergency physicians like us are not here at these places...
Delete@vimal krishna pillai...And comming to your line of speech...Hospitals be it corporate or secondary level want to get the job done...they want a quality emergency care to be provided...they don't bother about MCI recognition and all that shit...I can challenge...you being a MCI recognised real qualified Emergency physician if possible try and replace any of unreal EPs like me from our work place atleat for half of our pay....
DeleteAre you willing to start or continue a non Accredited course in your place of work, knowing that its against the law and also knowing that you are betraying a young graduate who could still strive hard and obtain a seat in an Accredited Course
Deletedr vijay as u have mentioned we have only a very few seats for MD emergency medicine /DNB.its unfortunated u didnt get to join an accredited degree.now accredited degree has come we to accept them.all the corporate hospitals will soon embrace accredited people as there specialist it has to happen and will happen.
DeleteHello my dear friends, EM was developed by medical professionals of varied specialties but now the days have come where there are MCI recognised MD EM do exist to Cary the torch forward....so we have given way for them to take leadership role... now it is high time we all wind up these diplomas, fellowships,Masters by Societies which the Institutions who started these courses have given up.... why worry
ReplyDeletewell said sir.people have to understand the change and accept this for the growth of the speciality
DeleteDear friends, all of us know how the private medical colleges are charging a hefty amount for an MD seat...and Jubilee is not the odd one out...few of those who r doing MD there are the academically worstpoor, who cannot stand on their own feet and have purchased the MD seats with crores of black money earned by their parents... If they are so good, y can't they try competing and then getting a seat... Moreover as much as i know, MCI has derecognised the MD EM course last year at Jubillee... Secondly those who give value to MCI degree, let me tell u all that till now there is no clear cut guideline or curriculum which MCI has released for MD EM...moreover these MCI moron people donot even know the difference between casualty and ED... And for ur kind notice, MCI is not in favour of growth of EM... If u look at the last yr mci pg recognition application status, they have rejected all the applications for starting MD EM all over India... Moreover when says even MD in anesthesia or medicine or any other subject cannot be faculty for MD EM if they don't have a formal training of atleast 2 years in EM...even i am a recognised faculty as SR coz i have training certificate plus three years of experience, but my AP who is MD anesthesia and has 10 years of working experience was rejected by MCI to be a faculty for MD EM...
DeleteDear friends, all of us know how the private medical colleges are charging a hefty amount for an MD seat...and Jubilee is not the odd one out...few of those who r doing MD there are the academically worstpoor, who cannot stand on their own feet and have purchased the MD seats with crores of black money earned by their parents... If they are so good, y can't they try competing and then getting a seat... Moreover as much as i know, MCI has derecognised the MD EM course last year at Jubillee... Secondly those who give value to MCI degree, let me tell u all that till now there is no clear cut guideline or curriculum which MCI has released for MD EM...moreover these MCI moron people donot even know the difference between casualty and ED... And for ur kind notice, MCI is not in favour of growth of EM... If u look at the last yr mci pg recognition application status, they have rejected all the applications for starting MD EM all over India... Moreover when says even MD in anesthesia or medicine or any other subject cannot be faculty for MD EM if they don't have a formal training of atleast 2 years in EM...even i am a recognised faculty as SR coz i have training certificate plus three years of experience, but my AP who is MD anesthesia and has 10 years of working experience was rejected by MCI to be a faculty for MD EM...
DeleteWhatever may be the reason to join non recognized EM seats..it clearly shows dat those fellow mbbs doctors dint have d potential to crack our pg entrance exam..and ds fact itself proves d worth of MD /DNB EM physcians who have worked their hardest and had sacrificed a lot to come till this height..obviously we the MD/DNB degree holders are worthy enough for d country and for our profession..Short cut in anymeans in any field/profession is never right/acceptable..ts high time that people should realize how much a mbbs student sacrifice to avail a valid degree..
ReplyDeleteWell said
ReplyDeleteAfter reading some of the above comments i have some questions. Why is emergency medicine only speciality with non accredited courses? Why not in anaesthesia, internal medicine or general surgery? Surely all these non accredited program was started by someone who had one of these degrees to start with. I wonder what the answer might be. There is still crunch for anaesthesiologists surgeons and physicians in Semi urban India. Why was no one keen on these specialities?
ReplyDeleteFor those institutions who train DNB accredited candidates and candidates of non recognised courses, why do you want to churn out two different breeds of emergency physicians? Why should you dilute the merit of those DNB accredited candidates?
So i support Dr Vimal in this crusade.
Well said Dr.Ajay...I too support Dr.Vimal...This happened only in Emergency medicine because there was nobody to question this till yesterday.. And now we have a strong association... Let's unite to purify Emergency medicine like cardiologists did with PGDCC..
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteSir,kindly get your facts straight before spreading misinformation to the public.Amonng the 27 Medical colleges which i mentioned,6 colleges have MCI Recognised MD EM programs and the rest have MCI permitted programmes.That doesnt mean that permitted programs are un authorised.
DeleteSee,even the colleges which have now MCI Recognised MD EM had once only MCI permission and later MCI Recognised them.The remaining colleges are yet to be recognised by MCI which they do,just like other MD courses.
Also,in no way can one equate MCI Permitted MD with un authorised so called PG programmes,the readon being those programes were started without even the knowledge of MCI.Permitted MD is started after MCI inspection.Hope the difference is clear.Its foolishness to equate MCI permitted MD EM with completely unauthorised PG courses started without any legal accreditation in India.
I list below the colleges having MCI Recognised MD EM courses.Among these,except central institutes,other colleges were the ones with MCI Permitted/Approved MD which got later recognised by MCI
COLLEGES HAVING MCI RECOGNISED MD-Emergency Medicine
1)AIIMS
2)JIPMER
3)Govt BJ Med College,Ahmedbad
4)NHL Municipal medical college,Gujarath
5)Govt Medical College,Baroda
6)Vydehi Medical College,Bangalore
The remaining 21 colleges have currently MCI Approved MD EM courses which will also be later recognised by the MCI,as is the case with all MCI approved Clinical and non clinical MD Courses.
Please dont spread false info.
Respected unknown... That's how MCI deals with MD degrees in all subjects over India.. They first give letter of permission ( LOP) to start MD course..then after three years when the first batch appears for the exam again they make a visit and recognizes the degree.. Equating permitted MD Degrees with unauthorized degrees is utter nonsense..
DeleteIn case you have not noticed, many of those colleges mentioned as PERMITTED are in the same status from early 2012 which means that its almost 5 years and still the status has not changed.
DeleteAQnd like I/\'v mentioned before, I am very well aware of numerous colleges where the permitted status was never converted to recognised status even after numerous years and finally the respective courses were scrapped instead.
Many of those who joined MEM never had a chance of DNB emergency as it was introduced only a little over 2 years ago. So Give them a chance of DNB exit exam and see. I am sure many will qualify that Because they study the same Textbooks and concepts.
ReplyDeleteThat will be an academic way to challenge them instead of demeaning them.
You cannot write dnb exit exam...even the MCI permitted candidates could not write exit exam...for that you require a proper MCI recognized degree.. or else you have to start from the beginning
DeleteMany of those who joined MEM never had a chance of DNB emergency as it was introduced only a little over 2 years ago. So Give them a chance of DNB exit exam and see. I am sure many will qualify that Because they study the same Textbooks and concepts.
ReplyDeleteThat will be an academic way to challenge them instead of demeaning them.
Are you trying to make fool of all those dnb candidates who strived hard to get a seat clearing an entrance examination by this proposed lateral entry to an exit exam conducted by dnb
DeleteFor ur kind information, patient can't wait for a so called recognized EM physician to come and save him during his cardiac arrest or gasping.
ReplyDeleteAny doctor who can save a life in emergency must be praised irrespective of recognized or unrecognized.
Ayurvedics can prescribe inj.peptaz which no one bats an eye...an unrecognized Ed physician runs a arrest code and saves a life...everyone goes crazy....
Haha...
Good keep it up my dear recognized doctors.
Sir,kindly get your facts straight before spreading misinformation to the public.Amonng the 27 Medical colleges which i mentioned,6 colleges have MCI Recognised MD EM programs and the rest have MCI permitted programmes.That doesnt mean that permitted programs are un authorised.
ReplyDeleteSee,even the colleges which have now MCI Recognised MD EM had once only MCI permission and later MCI Recognised them.The remaining colleges are yet to be recognised by MCI which they do,just like other MD courses.
Also,in no way can one equate MCI Permitted MD with un authorised so called PG programmes,the readon being those programes were started without even the knowledge of MCI.Permitted MD is started after MCI inspection.Hope the difference is clear.Its foolishness to equate MCI permitted MD EM with completely unauthorised PG courses started without any legal accreditation in India.
I list below the colleges having MCI Recognised MD EM courses.Among these,except central institutes,other colleges were the ones with MCI Permitted/Approved MD which got later recognised by MCI
COLLEGES HAVING MCI RECOGNISED MD-Emergency Medicine
1)AIIMS
2)JIPMER
3)Govt BJ Med College,Ahmedbad
4)NHL Municipal medical college,Gujarath
5)Govt Medical College,Baroda
6)Vydehi Medical College,Bangalore
The remaining 21 colleges have currently MCI Approved MD EM courses which will also be later recognised by the MCI,as is the case with all MCI approved Clinical and non clinical MD Courses.
Please dont spread false info.
I Believe I have my facts pretty sorted out. For your information, PERMITTED means that the person who has underwent the course cannot practice the said Specialty in any state in INDIA until it gets transformed to recognised status. It means that, practising your respective specialty when obtained under "PERMITTED" status is ILLEGAL until MCI revises the status. There is no grey area in this matter, its only BLACK and WHITE - So you are either recognised or not recognised. And if not recognised, then you are clearly UNQUALIFIED as per MCI norms. So please, before you embark on an argument, do get your facts straight.
DeleteI am very well aware of numerous colleges where the permitted status was never converted to recognised status even after numerous years and finally the respective courses were scrapped instead.
So i Repeat, PLEASE UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN WORTH BEFORE POINTING FINGERS AND JUDGING
Until and unless you can show claim to a "Recognised" status degree in MCI - You do not have the right to practice the said specialty. But there are many people out there with PERMITTED degrees who are practising EM and please do understand, that even those are ILLEGAL.
Deletemr unknown u r points against MCI PERMITED seats are fine .if u feel an mci permitted degree holder who has taken degree from a college authorized by mci,who will be 100% recognized are ILLEGAL .what about people who have no mci approval,degree from some bogus foreign university or a society approval shouldn't we ban them.
DeleteDear Mr. Hans, if we bring in the moral and ethical aspects of the issue into the matter, there is a lot more ground that needs to be covered and a lot of aspects that need to be considered and arguments can always be made both ways and it will always end up in a draw.
DeleteBut as long as we are discussing the legality of the issue and related matters, there are only 2 categories : "Recognised" and "Not Recognised". And if "Not recognised", then no matter which institution you pass out of or whatever your personal opinion about a particular institution be, the bottomline is that you are "ILLEGAL". And also if you think about it, if the basis of not giving recognition to a course in a particular college is because it does not meet the stipulated requirements, then how can you claim that a student passing out of such an institute is worthy?
Dear Mr unknown u r correct in stating non recognised and recognised. If u cross check with mci website u will understand that all colleges which are permitted are still permitted and not derecognised.
DeleteIf u go through the inspection reports mci wants certain clauses to be met for issuing recognisation which policy makers are fine tuning according to present situation. There is a huge difference between people who are trained as per mci recommendations and from other non accredited courses. First batch exams were conducted in most colleges with mci faculty and inspection of the department had taken place,from the number of faculty to there qualification department quality all are accessed these just a few points so much it's different and we'll defined with highest standards. So dear Mr unknown these colleges to get recognisation is just a matter of time.
But as u mentioned early on grounds of moral and ethical values we need to eradicate the unaccredited courses which is a scam to make money and give some degree and degrade the speciality it self.
Dear Doctors,
ReplyDeleteI am a final year resident doing MD EM.. MD emergency in India is a new specialty and the right path to a new speciality is by the MCI as per the constitution which moderates the medical education in India.
A similar stint is happening in similar specialities like sports medicine, trauma surgery, transfusion medicine where the courses are permitted but not recognized yet. Hopefully in due time it will happen.
Let me make things very clear.. If MCI is not giving recognition to a permitted MD course there must be a valid reason for that.for eg there must be some deficiencies in faculty, infrastructure e.t.c..as MCI always wants perfection.. The institution has to rectify all those deficiencies and submit compliance.. Then they again come for inspection.. This process continue till the institution attains MCI standards.. This is the reason for the delay.. This is to make sure that only doctors with quality are coming out.. And MCI is not going to scrap off any permitted MD degrees.. All permitted candidates must get recognition...
ReplyDeleteLet me make things very clear.. If MCI is not giving recognition to a permitted MD course there must be a valid reason for that.for eg there must be some deficiencies in faculty, infrastructure e.t.c..as MCI always wants perfection.. The institution has to rectify all those deficiencies and submit compliance.. Then they again come for inspection.. This process will continue till the institution attains MCI standards.. This is the reason for the delay.. This is to make sure that only doctors with quality are coming out.. And MCI is not going to scrap off any permitted MD degrees.. All permitted candidates must get recognition...
ReplyDeleteThis blog very well depicts the status of Emergency Medicine in India. There are detractors everywhere n likewise in emergency medicine as well. I want to bring to the notice of all of you that the union health ministry has issued notices to a few institutions for running such unaccredited courses n luring students for their own benefit n many more institutions vl get the whip in the future due to the stringent laws of practicing medicine in india. These students may get jobs as a resident or even as registrar n nothing more than that for a few years but later they vl be squeezed out of the jobs n they vl land up nowhere. The institutions vl anyways get MD/DNB's to run their departments. That's the hard truth vch everyone should accept. My advice for those students who have done or who are planning to do such unaccredited courses is to forget everything come to the accredited courses by clearing the entrance exams n be secured on a long run. Don't yield to the false promises of clearing an exit exam to be recognised MD/DNB which has never happened n it's not going to happen in the future. Decision is yours!
ReplyDeleteWell said... That's the fact..
DeleteWell said it's the voice of DNB and MDs
DeleteDear Friends,
ReplyDeleteI feel Vimal has done a great job by taken the initiative starting this discussion. I thank him for that.
No personal jibes against anyone, in this case against Vimal (who has put his point across in dignified language) is welcome.
Further, the veterans and past EM professionals (before formal MD/DNB) were created, deserve their due credit and respect for their contribution to EM in India.They have helped lay the foundation for us and others to come.
That said I agree with what Dr. Sundara kumar, one of the ways to solve the issue is the simple acceptance that the torch needs to be passed on, rather than resistance offered by holding on to the past.
To the best of my understanding the purpose of this article was to curb the FURTHER growth of non accredited programs for a better academic EM in India, and not to demean those who have already finished courses in the past.
The need of the hour is to To create full capacity trained doctors in EM so our colleagues and patients respect us and dont expect a "specialist/super specialist opinion" for everything in EM. The battle is against those who mock and slight EM as an inferior speciality.
We need to end bitterness and collaborate and make EM one of the most desired specialties for students like it is the US, like it deserves to be.
Justice to EM, Justice to EPs and above all justice to patients in their most vulnerable state.
Jai hind.
MCI / NBE are Final Authorities - A Degree from them is Final mark of Quality
ReplyDeleteAnyone can keep saying anything
Pleading / Emitional rants will not change the fact that MD / DNB are the top degree
If they are not top why are the FRAUDS jockeying for RECOGNITION
They are doing so because they are not legitimate
Additionally all this legal talk about MCI recognized and MCI permitted - Reality is it's still MCI and will be always MCI - slow process but it's still a process
Sad that students were cheated lured with false promises and now the lie is coming to light
It's like "I did not get into MBBS so I did a non MBBS course but India needs doctors and I know acupuncture , what will happen to so many patients , hence I needs to be given MBBS, all MBBS Let us unite"
So all the hard work a student did to get into MBBS , Pass it goes to nowhere"
What a justification !
"MCI is this MCI is that " - it's still MCI and it is a great institution because it gave us the MBBS on the basis of which some are doing right things and some are frauds
Anyways this debate can go on because people who do wrong knowingly think that they are doing the right thing
Playing victim evoking emotional dialogues is the key for violators to play victims
Fact is MD/NBE are The Bera descions and nation building initiatives by MCI/NBE And its commendable
Mind well the same violators continues to distribute and recruit students and commit crimes after MD / DNB started and they are still continuing
The new strategy is to go knocking on Doors if politicians , take pictures with them, create fake awards and award each other and then show the students that they are legitimate and continue recruiting
Education is being used as a way to have cheap economical labor for three year
SAD - Fake Programs , FAKE degree , Unsafe Patient Care in a Fake Trainings environment
Patient suffers
Additionally the outcry is because the REAL EM PHYSICIAN HAS SPOKEN
Say No to Lies because only the TRUTH FLIES !
Superb..
DeleteYou should probably start shouting out slogans too. All this would have sounded very nice.... on a script for a drama perhaps.. But definitly not in reality... Anyways all the best to you.. Lets just stop arguing and see what happens...
DeleteTruly said Sir
DeleteExactly!!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteTo all MD/DNB emergency medicine colleagues, let me say I can understand your sheer frustration bcoz u learnt ur emergency medicine from internal medicine, surgery, orthopedic teachers, but WE could do from real emergency medicine teachers who flew every month from USA to make in india as per our beloved PMs policy to make in india since this speciality never existed before. And your Ema god father Dr. Galwankar never had guts to teach in india to satisfy his own selfish motives and is now creating this rift.
ReplyDeletedear anonymous ,as MD/DNB emregency medicine graduates we r proud to say that our faculties from other specialties who have migrated to emergency medicine and trained them self to be eminent faculties.as far we are concerned they are real emergency physicians than the so called faculty from USA who work with some bogus universities.
DeleteModi ji is asking for MAKE IN INDIA but u r interested in low grade programs from abroad.
this one is personal Dr SAGAR GALWANKAR is an eminent academician and powerful leader who has empowered accredited residents in inida challenging his credibility would be the most unfortunate thing that can happen to u.
Dear Anonymous, do you think that all the specialities that exists here are because of the direct inputs from foreign teachers. Medical and surgical specialities were started by the physicians and surgeons not by any foreign degree holders.A nd please do search the degrees of the people who thought about the need of EM here.
DeleteDear Anonymous, do you think that all the specialities that exists here are because of the direct inputs from foreign teachers. Medical and surgical specialities were started by the physicians and surgeons not by any foreign degree holders.A nd please do search the degrees of the people who thought about the need of EM here.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteGureilla comments can go on BUT facts are facts and Qulified Leaders are qualufied leaders- I feel sad for poor students who were misled and now suffer from Stockholm syndrome
Dear all anonymous and unknowns, A simple question to all pg aspirants..Imagine you are urgently in need of fifty thousand rupees...what will you do...Do you approach criminals who print counterfeit notes or do you manage to get currencies printed by our honourable reserve bank of India... Imagine you want to watch a newly released movie..Do you go to a theatre or approach persons who are selling pirated CDs...if your answers are counterfeit and piracy go and join mem no problem.... But I would like to warn you guys... MD seats may come in limited number... But that's not the case with DNB...once a DNB course is started in an institution there won't be further inspection or other formalities..In next 2-3 years they are going to come out in huge numbers as fully fledged MCI faculties... They are going to eradicate all these fake degrees and hospitals do prefer dnbs...No anonymous or unknowns would be there to help you and they could not help you at all...look twice before you leap..God bless..
ReplyDeleteWell said.... The solution for poverty in India is not counterfeit notes and it must not be like that!!!!
DeleteHi ...
ReplyDeleteI am a consultant working in an Emergency Dept at the ED of one of the pioneer hospitals to start training doctors in Emergency Medicine under George Washington University. There seems to be a lot of hostility here. We are all doctors & adults, so instead to demeaning & insulting each other, I think we need to have a healthy discussion on the topic.
First things first, it is hypocritical of Dr Vimal to rage about “fake degrees” and “illegal courses” while he himself has attached FACEE voluntarily at the end of his name. If he sincerely believes in what he says, he should remove it immediately. As long as you keep that at the end of your name, you are no different from those you are criticising of starting organisations & handing out degrees which are not recognised.
Second, a significant no of the MD EM doctors in India have done their EM under permitted seats, which at the end of the day is not recognised, no matter what they may say. Either your degree is recognised or not. Just like failing in an exam by 1 mark or 30 marks doesn’t make any difference, fail is fail. So basically, as of now, it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Regarding MD EM candidates being superior because they cracked the entrance exam, ppl seem to conveniently forget the fact that a lot of them are from private colleges where they “bought” the seats. Not all of them have cleared the entrance exam. Moreover, the EM residency courses run in govt medical colleges have an serious drawbacks- no emergency physicians to train them, inadequate infrastructure, inadequate facilities like Bedside USG. They are usually trained by different specialists who have no idea what the EM protocols are.
A lot of MD / DNB EM graduates have chosen the specialty because they could not get their primary choice of speciality. The number of residents who had EM as their primary choice is very small. This is an open secret.
In case you are wondering how i am making such claims, its because I have a plenty of friends doing MD EM in govt medical colleges as well as in private medical colleges.
Another thing people are forgetting is that MCI did not suddenly recognise the specialty one fine day. The very people that you are accusing of running “corrupt & malignant courses” lobbied hard to get the specialty recognised & to get MD & DNB course in EM started. There have been a lot of people who have done a lot for the speciality before you even considered taking up this speciality. And are still doing so.
(to be continued 1/2)
(2/2)
ReplyDeleteComing to non recognised courses, I agree there is lot of differences in the way the courses are conducted at different places. Some places are bad whereas others are good. This is in no way different from any other MD/ DNB training programs. Some of the best training programs in the country are being done in private corporate hospitals. It may seem unbelievable to those who haven’t seen it, but its true. You should go see it for yourself. In fact my center has been running both MEM(GWU) as well as DNB EM for the past couple of years. That being said, the nonrecognised courses can’t run forever. Eventually they will have to be stopped.
I believe that the government should take measures to integrate the unrecognised EM post graduates into the mainstream (by conducting some sort of exit exam or provide eligibility to attempt secondary DNB) & slowly wrap up all unrecognised programs. After all there are a lot of really good unrecognised Emergency Physicians out there who are resources for a speciality that is sorely understaffed in our country. If you think that specialty should be run only by recognised MD/ DNB graduates, it’ll take you atleast 30-50 years to get sufficient EPs to staff atleast most of the EDs in the country.
These sort of issues crop up at the beginning of every specialty. So in the interest of future of EM, lets work together for a brighter future for EM in our country.
Jai hind
PS:
There primary concern of the author seems to be the effect the the “unrecognised” EM graduates have on their job prospects. My view is that, there is an acute shortage of trained Emergency Physicians on a global level, not just in India. The field is not going to get saturated for another 15 years atleast. EM is like anesthesia, if you are good enough, the doctors in the other departments will know & they are the ones who will recommend you (not your patients).
@ Team beepers:
ReplyDeleteDon't you think you be a neutral moderater in this discussion? I think thats the responsible think to do.. If you have a personal opinion, maybe you should post it under a private id..
Beating around the bush does not change the fact - MCI recognized / permitted MD and NBE - DNB will always be MD / NBE
ReplyDeletewhat ever justification is given cannot fill that gap
On the other hand it is good that proof is now on paper an open Web about double dipping and running illegal courses and abusing the teacher to student ratio norm of NBE And thanks this is going right to them
Great job !
No ones beating around bushes. The truth is that all you people fighting for recognized degrees are forgetting that almost all the DNB EM courses are utilising the exact same hospitals, faculty, facilities and even curriculum (copied) as that of your so called "unrecognized" courses.
DeleteThe truth is that you people are actually fighting cause you're scared of losing job opportunities and are simply using this whole "patriotism" act as a cover.
And @Team beepers : Man! I found your comment really funny. You actually think that your petty threats are going to make any difference? Wow! What a joke?! You should probably start a comedy blog as well.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDear Ep,
ReplyDeleteIs there a uniform system for mem? George Washington University degree which is given from US is not valid in US.. Some Mem graduates applied to MCI to recognize their degree.. Unfortunately mci gave a order to derecognize and stop the course in Mumbai.
My comment/question seems to be removed, so will ask the question again.
ReplyDeleteWe all know that DNB has approved and appointed these unrecognized so called "FRAUDS" as faculties for DNB EM programme. So does that mean DNB itself is supporting and carrying out fraudulent activities? Again, if a DNB candidate is been trained by a FRAUD, will it make that candidate a FRAUD too at the end of 3 years?
Yes Dr. afsal you are right..frauds are training DNB residents now..National board of examinations hasn't entrusted any frauds to teach DNB guys.. And Dr afsal if you are also one among them (FRAUDS) I am not interested in giving reply to your comment.. ...
DeleteDear EP do you know what FACEE is? It's not a degree.. Learn about it..its a visa to academic college of emergency experts....and you know what MRCEM means?...it's not a degree... It's a visa to do postgraduation in U.K..clearing MRCEM means UK won't accept you as a consultant straight away... For that you have to become a fellow... If Vimal Krishnan has to scrap off his FACCE...all those who cleared MRCEM has to scrap off the same from their name boards... U agree or not..?
ReplyDeleteIt does not matter whether FACEE is a degree or visa or the name of a restaurant... The point is that, according to these so called "Real Emergency Physicians of India" anything not approved by MCI is illegal. So you need to go ahead and scrap off all the FACEEs and MRCEMs and whatever that is not recognized.
DeleteIf u believe in an ideal, then stay true to it. Do not show double standards. If not, then go ahead and put your credentials as Dr. XYZ MBBS MDEM BLS ACLS PALS etc etc
And dear EP why are you still insisting up on exit exam for unauthorized courses... Do you know about the struggles and sacrifices done by mbbs people to crack pg entrance and to get in to a MD/DNB seat...since you are a faculty of George Washington university you may not be aware of that... One of my friends tried for 4 long years to get in to a MD EM course... He could have simply joined MEM soon after finishing his MBBS so that by now he may be sitting as the department head of emergency medicine in some private hospital...Is he the biggest fool in this world?...I am not talking about emergency medicine... All those who worked hard for years for an MD medicine,Ent,ophthalmology etc.. seat are also fools..poor stupid guys.. Isn't what you trying to say..even if they have to pay for NRI seat they have to crack the big pg entrance.. Which is not simple as getting in to MEM...
ReplyDeleteAnd dear EP from where did you get this information that people are taking MD EM because they didn't get their desired clinical subjects..I secured 1200 rank in pg entrance.. With that I would have easily got MD Medicine, Surgery ,Anaesthesia,Ent etc...I took MD EM because my interest is in emergency medicine...my junior secured rank 800 in pg entrance.. He left Ms ophthalmology in aiims and took MD EM in my college of his interest in Emergency medicine...and my other Junior's ranks are as follows..all India entrance 1300,1500 and state entrance ranks 200 and 300..All of them are genuinely interested in Emergency medicine.. The author Dr.Vimal Krishnan could have easily got into MD Anaesthesia in a government medical college with his state entrance rank..he took MD Emergency medicine in Jubilee which is a private hospital coz he is not interested in Emergency medicine.. Isn't it?!!!!!
ReplyDeleteDear EP can I ask you a simple question.. Do you have the guts to start programs like master of Paediatrics (MOP),master of orthopaedics (MOO),master of Ent (MOE),Master of internal medicine (MIM) e.t.c e.t.c under the accreditation of Dr.Gunderto,Dr.Gilberto,Dr.Christianio ronaldo e.t.c e.t.c in your hospital coz those specialities are also suffering from consultant deficiencies in rural areas right?.... Do it "THEY WILL BURN YOUR HOSPITAL!!!"
ReplyDeleteWell, the discussion seems to be going haywire. I think one of the boarders comment is very hasty n needs correction. (In response to the comment of Fraud faculty) The faculty eligibility for DNB courses has been decided by NBE n the same has been abided by the hospitals across India n the rest of the residents who are not undergoing DNB course are helping out in the many ways in the department n this shouldn't be undermined in this discussion.
ReplyDeleteThe real point is about the recognition, with lots of empathy towards those nonaccredited course holders, I hereby state that they shouldn't be in a false belief of getting recognised by the Central govt ministry of health. I truly feel that they have to be brought to the mainstream for them to be not affected by the law of the land. This process is almost impossible as NBE hasn't agreed to give a secondary DNB seat, thus exit exam is a far cry.
With these facts, I would urge the institutions which are conducting nonaccredited courses to stop giving any such degrees atleast from here on n facilitate those who have undergone such courses to be their permanent employees or encourage them to pursue either MD/DNB. Such institutions can as well reach to the NBE n get DNB courses.
Those who are interested to go abroad can do their residency programme for MRCEM but before they join the respective institutions should notify each one of them that MRCEM is not a legal degree to practice EM in India.
I think this should solve the issue without troubling anyone.
Having said that, if anybody feels that MBBS is enough to practice in india, yes u r right but if u feel that having an additional qualification in specific branches with any of the private hospitals will be ok to practice, then u r wrong. As we all know that EM is a seperate speciality course. The medical colleges when asked by MCI will consider to show MD/DNB as teaching faculty, its the same with NBE as well, n for ISO certification of corporate hospitals only the recognised degrees will be considered. Even if u have any nonaccredited MD degree u vl be shown as resident even after 10-20 years of practice. U may be giving the best of care to the patients but you vl be working under someone else who may be even junior to u.
The students who are undergoing these courses n the institutions that r conducting these courses, should bear this in mind n stop this immediately for the benefit of all.